I'm on the SmokingTire again! The Toyotaization of Subaru

"Jonathon Klein" (jonathon-klein)
05/14/2014 at 12:22 • Filed to: The Smoking Tire, Toyobaru, WRX

The new Legacy, which was supposedly the Levorg concept, is bland. The new Forester, bland. The new WRX, what the hell happened? It looks like either the old Mitsubishi Evo or a scooped Honda Civic. Plus, all they did was carry the old engine over from the previous STi. Not only that, but the new WRX and STi are only being offered as a Sedan. There will definitely be no wagon in the future according to the higher ups. How could they have foolishly eliminated the practical and awesome wagon option, which previously made up half of their sales in the US. What happened? Why were we all shown glorious and undoubtedly awesome Subaru concepts then delivered boring Toyota's?

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DISCUSSION (41)

dinobot666 > Jonathon Klein
05/14/2014 at 12:37

The new Legacy isn't the Levorg, nor is it based on the Levorg concept.

Jonathon Klein > dinobot666
05/14/2014 at 12:38

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1089504_s…

Stupidru > Jonathon Klein
05/14/2014 at 12:39

I wrote this yesterday in response to " How Subaru plans to take over America "

Sorry, SoA is not taking care of enthusiasts anymore. They have a forced induction engine available in 2 vehicles, the Forester XT and the WRX, and only one of those comes with a manual transmission.

I used to be a huge Subaru fan when the 2005-2009 Legacy GT was still around, (and looked great) when the Forester XT still had a manual and was this funky little wagon/mini SUV with a hoodscoop, when the Outback XT still had a manual and was still a wagon, when the WRX was still a wagon or a hatchback, but nowadays they are the new beige. They've told their niche market enthusiasts to like the new WRX or GTFO

Jonathon Klein > Stupidru
05/14/2014 at 12:41

Pretty much, I just don't get why they are doing this, they are going to just merge in one day fully with Toyota and that will be the end of Subaru.

Rico > Jonathon Klein
05/14/2014 at 12:48

They don't need "quirky" they just need nice, cool looking cars which they can't seem to translate from concept to reality. Toyota only owns 14%, hardly enough to change the design language of Subaru in such a major way. In my opinion Subaru was heading down this road with or without Toyota's help.

Also I agree, with any more influence from Toyota they will never be anything more than a beige nameplate. Toyota with their "We forgot how to build driver oriented cars after the Supra so we must build a Halo Super Car to remember again"thought process isn't going to help them at all.

Stupidru > Jonathon Klein
05/14/2014 at 12:49

The end of Subaru is really only a few years away, if it hasn't already ended. I saw an older Camry this morning and truthfully thought to myself "is that the new Legacy?". The only thing that keeps the "Subaru-ness" is the boxer engine, aside from that, it's a Toytoa with standard AWD.

That being said, I'll give it 20 years until Subaru finally returns to its roots by making quirky cars. It happens to every company that loses themselves along the lines

Jonathon Klein > Rico
05/14/2014 at 12:52

If they can bring the FT1 to reality and make it around Mustang prices Ill be happy.

Shady Balkan Subject, Drives an Alfa > Stupidru
05/14/2014 at 12:53

The same happened to BMW or at least the 3 series. From rather affordable sports sedan for the enhusiast it become a expensive car for the rather rich with a pretense to be the same. Yes it handles great, but it is not he same. Subaru has the same problem, they claim that everything is like before, but nothing is actually.

Stupidru > Rico
05/14/2014 at 12:54

Subaru needs to keep making "quirky" cars in the sense that they need to keep making cars that buck the trend without looking the part. The Outback XT and the old Forester XT are my favorite examples. The OBXT was a plain-jane station wagon with a 2.5L turbocharged beast that still came with a manual transmission. The FXT was this weird station wagon/CUV hybrid thing that people liked because it retained the driving dynamics of a car while offering more cargo space and the ability to take it off-road.

Now all of their cars look like everything else on the road. The Foz lost it's personality and is now the size of an Explorer, the OB is an enormous beached whale, the Legacy doesn't have a GT anymore and has faded into "beige-land", and they made an SUV which is the official sponsor of boring.

Rico > Jonathon Klein
05/14/2014 at 12:56

But they won't that's the problem. Even if it comes out, it'll be at NSX type prices. This is the same complaint I have with Honda, they built the S2000 then forgot how to make another similar style car with modern tech. It's not rocket science and at this rate Kia/Hyundai will come out with more driver oriented cars and end up embarassing Honda/Toyota

Rico > Stupidru
05/14/2014 at 12:58

You have a point but to me if they can make cool, sleek looking cars that perform as good as the WRX then that can fund their quirky cars that don't sell all that well which led them down this road in the first place.

Stupidru > Shady Balkan Subject, Drives an Alfa
05/14/2014 at 12:59

I believe I've made the same analogy but worded it differently; regardless, the principle remains the same.

I used to own an 06 LGT which I think was the last generation of their roots. I'm currently driving an 03 Impreza Outback Sport which I'm going to miss someday no matter how much I say I hate it. There's just something about that car that exudes character, whether it's the ugly front end, it's ability to swallow cargo like it's breakfast, or it's unwillingness to die regardless of what's thrown at it.

Their new Legacy is essentially an Avalon or a Camry, but I can't decide which. And the Impreza is not even note-worthy as a piece of loose-leaf paper gives me more inspiration

Jonathon Klein > Rico
05/14/2014 at 13:01

Please don't kill my dreams, I saw that thing in person at Chicago and goddamn do I need that in my life.

Rico > Jonathon Klein
05/14/2014 at 13:04

Lmao your dreams must die so that beige may live!

YSI-what can brown do for you > Jonathon Klein
05/14/2014 at 13:15

Imagine if Lamborghini had used the same engine for 20 years. . . oh wait they used it for 50. The new STI is a good car, it is a much better handling car than the last one or any before for that matter. It doesn't matter that it got an old engine it still has plenty of power(plus it is an EJ which means people will know how to extract power from it from the start).

As for looks, it happens with every Subaru. People complain about how it looks then in 10 years time it will look amazing and "why can't we go back to the old WRX" It happens all the time every time.

The problem with being offered as a hatch stems from people not wanting to buy it. You can say how much you wanted to buy a hatch but unless you use your wallet Subaru won't care, just like every other company. Which is why no one comes out with a brown manual wagon inline 5 turbo diesel. . .cause no one would buy one.

I however will agree with the Legacy, the older one was such a classy looking car. Plus it sounded awesome(cause it had the old EJ with UEL headers)! The Legacy GT was a great sleeper.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > Jonathon Klein
05/14/2014 at 13:26

Good op-ed.

But I have been temporarily banned for this kind of talk on NASIOC several YEARS ago, and I don't go there anymore, because Subaru isn't worth the trouble anymore.

I warned of Toyota's blanding-effect and mainstream emphasis turning Subaru away from it's Niche when FT-86 was announced, in the development stage, that it wouldn't be AWD. Two years before anyone outside the project knew what it would look like.

It is well underway.

As you pointed out, and I have many times, for many years... everything is being turned toward the mainstream appliance-buyer, and the enthusiasts, whether that be the motorsports enthusiasts, or the outdoors enthusiasts, are getting left behind.

The bloom is off the FT86 cars, and Toyota has played it's hand... they are now forcefully denying a turbocharger, a convertible roof, or any further enhancement to the FT-86 cars, despite customers and perspective customers realizing that 200hp and no appreciable torque gets old, and does not make for a versatile car. Ram-rodding the car ALL THE TIME gets tiresome, and it doesn't have practicality, or even truly gorgeous looks to fall back on.

WRX is a HUGE disappointment, and Subaru KNEW, THEY KNEW that the WRX Concept was a MASSIVE bait and switch.

They re-styled the Impreza Design Concept sedan as the WRX concept (the roofline is the same, and didn't come anywhere near production.)

And they KNEW that the production car would be as dowdy as the Impreza, even if it doesn't technically say Impreza on the trunk badge. The spy shots of the development mule surfaced less than a month after the concept car's show debut. They KNEW.

Legacy is now just a follow-along to the much better selling Outback... lowered with a sedan trunk, but both are now dowdy, ugly, and geriatric. They make Accord and Camry look good, and Fusion almost exotic.

Forester could have gotten sportier from 2013->2014, but instead it got sleepier, and more ubiquitously boring. A Turbo Forester is just a way not to have to put an H6 under the hood, and not to step on Outback 3.6's toes, it is not a sport package in any other respect.

Impreza might as well be a Corrola + AWD.

XV is a slightly interesting premise, given the crappy state of most roads... but drastically under-powered, and I can't help but wonder if it is specifically to point toward the added torque from the XV Hybrid.

I still wait for the possibility of an XV Turbo, basically an XV Crosstrek with the guts of a WRX... but I am not sure if Subaru has the cojones for that anymore.

Subaru barely even turns my head anymore. There are better appliances on the market, from companies much more proficient at mass-manufacturing appliances with more and better options, and even slightly less boring looking. And they aren't interesting as performance cars anymore. WRX's new engine and 6-speed are Ok, but in a boy-racer civic sedan body, and STI's transaxle is better, but the engine is due for retirement, in the SAME body.

Subaru abandoned it's lock on a good Niche to chase unit sales numbers... and they show growth every quarter, but they are still less than 10% marketshare, and have nothing on the big dogs like Toyota, Honda, Ford, GM, VW-group, or even Fiat/Chrysler who sell far more cars than Subaru does.

Dar > dinobot666
05/14/2014 at 13:34

Exactly.

Stupidru > Rico
05/14/2014 at 13:34

But the market is dictating their path. People are OBSESSED with fuel efficiency, even though the monthly difference between a 23mpg car and a 30mpg car is $40 for a person who drives 2000 miles/month, even though they're willing to spend $300/mo just to save that $40.

Unfortunately that means CVTs and other not-fun stuff

dinobot666 > Stupidru
05/14/2014 at 13:37

The take rate on the Forester XT when it was offered with the manual transmission was less than 5%. Nobody bought them.

It would have been silly for Subaru to offer another Forester XT with a manual transmission if were to be sold in such limited quantities.

Stupidru > dinobot666
05/14/2014 at 13:43

While I don't disagree with you, riddle me this:

Why does Subaru still make the Forester XT with a manual transmission at the Gunma factory that are shipped to other parts of the world except the US? Why does Subaru in Lafayette still make a 3.6L Outback with a manual transmission, but not sell it in the USA?

It's SoA. They are making the brand so boring for us Americans. Subaru in Japan gets all the cool stuff like the Levorg and the Exiga

Jonathon Klein > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast.
05/14/2014 at 14:06

I saw a brand spanking new STi on the road the other day, my wife and I sitting in my 86, and laughed our asses off. First it looks like a Corolla/Evo, and second he got the worst seats ever, they aren't even anything near sport seats. They aren't even close to my buckets. I just couldn't let it go any longer.

My cousin had an original STi when it came out, he boosted the crap out of it to around 500whp, I loved the character of that car. These new ones have nothing I'm interested in. Even the actual auto journalists don't really like the car, they like the new tech, but no new engine, and boring exterior make it just not likable.

Jonathon Klein > YSI-what can brown do for you
05/14/2014 at 14:09

People did buy the hatck, 50% of the WRX sales in NA were from the Hatch. Also it doesn't matter for Lamborghini because they used to be operating at a super low volume, it didn't pay to redesign an engine with a new model, but this is Subaru with the money of Toyota backing it. They could have just grabbed the new FA20 engine from the WRX and Toyobaru twins and turbo'd the crap out of it, made a bit more hp and called it a day. They didn't.

Jonathon Klein > Rico
05/14/2014 at 14:11

NOOOOOO!!!!!!

Jonathon Klein > Stupidru
05/14/2014 at 14:11

I have another article coming out on The Smoking Tire soon that may shed some light on how to have both fun and great fuel economy so stay tuned!

Stupidru > Jonathon Klein
05/14/2014 at 14:12

I'd be interested to find out how! Keep US posted :)

ItsDeke > YSI-what can brown do for you
05/14/2014 at 14:14

As for looks, it happens with every Subaru. People complain about how it looks then in 10 years time it will look amazing and "why can't we go back to the old WRX" It happens all the time every time.

Every single generation. I've been driving a bugeye for the last 11 years, and every time a new WRX is unveiled, people complain about it not looking as good as the previous gen (maybe with the exception of the blob-eyes). I'm sorry, but the WRX has always looked like an econo box. I remember having non-car people asking me if my bugeye was a new Dodge Neon when I first got it. The new generation is no different.

Jonathon Klein > Stupidru
05/14/2014 at 14:16

I think it might be up later this week, but I'm not sure, and Matt just left the country for something to do with /Drive, I think Harris kidnapped him, at least it looked like he did via Twitter!

YSI-what can brown do for you > Jonathon Klein
05/14/2014 at 14:31

The FA20 isn't the perfect engine. Particularly when it has both DI and port injection. Go on the FRS forums and you will read about engine failures. The reason being the DI. Without the DI the engine made a terrible 160hp at the crank. The FA engine isn't all new, it is based off of a older legacy engine as well, Subaru like any company is trying to cut costs, they rarely design an all new engine for a car. The EJ is more than capable, once again it has the exact same power as the EL twin scroll turbo FA20 in the WRX. There is still a lot left at the table. An older car with a downpipe plus tune was a great and super easy way to get power.

Just my thoughts though. The old engine is well known and made just as much power as the newer one. I am not sure where the complaints are though, they were aiming for handling which they executed very nicely. Plus the older engine sounds nicer, really a win win.

I am sure if the sales are that high they will offer a hatch. I don't expect them to sell as much though. Though 50% of sales were hatches in NA, I bet you that the graph started falling after the initial rush of Subaru fans got theirs. I feel as though most the people that complain aren't actually going to buy one. Just like when people complained about a lack of cheap RWD sports cars.

TLDR: EJ makes same power, better handling, what's the problem? Also, hatch sales may not be the same as when the old WRX started to when it ended.

YSI-what can brown do for you > ItsDeke
05/14/2014 at 14:33

Exactly, I have always thought these things have looked a bit funky. That's okay though I kindof like the way they all look. The new WRX looks great(besides the wheels that look like it is on stilts).

Some days, I think people just want to complain about something.

dinobot666 > Stupidru
05/14/2014 at 14:33

They're (SOA) simply catering to American's tastes and buying habits. If we bought Forester XTs with manual transmissions in great numbers, then I'm sure they'd be more than happy to continue to produce them for this market.

Jonathon Klein > YSI-what can brown do for you
05/14/2014 at 14:44

I used to have the link to the Subaru sales figures but can't find it. If I remember correctly the hatch stayed level throughout the time they sold it. Hopefully my engine doesn't fail. Did they fail when they put a turbo or SC on it?

YSI-what can brown do for you > Jonathon Klein
05/14/2014 at 14:53

It isn't like 1/2 of them fail or anything. It is a low number but when compared to other engines it is a lot higher than it normally should be. Usually you would know within the first 10k miles if your engine is crap or not(at 4k in 3rd or 4th gear go WOT if you hear a popping then you might have a DI failure!). You can be NA and still have this problem!

elev8r > Stupidru
05/14/2014 at 14:55

I had a 2009 outback XT with the 5 speed manual...it was so awesome. then they absolutely killed the soul of the outback starting in 2010.

Jonathon Klein > YSI-what can brown do for you
05/14/2014 at 14:58

I'm almost at 10k since October, I don't think I heard anything so hopefully that's good.

YSI-what can brown do for you > Jonathon Klein
05/14/2014 at 15:03

Usually a tune helps solve this problem. I went to the dealership and said "can you give me the same tune that the newer cars have(they don't have this problem any more)" they said no, like always. So I have to go to the aftermarket. Not to mention MOAR POAWRHRH!!!

Jonathon Klein > YSI-what can brown do for you
05/14/2014 at 15:12

Im saving up for the Cosworth Power package coming out soon, when I have that Ill do the tune.

Burrito de EJ25 > Jonathon Klein
05/15/2014 at 01:48

What fucking opposite-day-ass motherfucking universe are these people warping from where Subarus of yesteryear were Alfa-fucking-Romeos? They have and probably always will look ugly and/or boring.

That's Subaru. They're utilitarian. Stop it, everyone who thinks otherwise.

Seriously, the only Subaru you could even consider pretty is the fourth generation Legacy. Everything else has always been Toyota as fuck. Our beloved 22B looks like someone enlarged the fenders on a Corolla.

I get it. Nostalgia is a thing, but let's not get delusional.

Burrito de EJ25 > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast.
05/15/2014 at 01:54

Subaru never turned heads. Subaru never made beautiful cars. Subaru has always been utilitarian, and Subarus have always looked like Toyotas. You're absolutely delusional if you think otherwise.

Kinja'd!!!

Look! Go-fast bits on a Corolla!

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > Burrito de EJ25
05/15/2014 at 02:03

They have been, but now that Toyotas and others are more and more AWD, maybe the need something else.

And those old Subarus didn't look as badly over styled ad dowdy as some of the new ones, and were more widely available with turbocharged engines and/or manual gearboxes.

Burrito de EJ25 > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast.
05/15/2014 at 03:09

Subaru isn't immune to trends. It doesn't matter how niche they are.

Manual transmissions are getting to a point where they're less cost effective than just dumping the same transmission across the entire trim range. Also, nobody fucking buys them.

And nobody has yet to offer AWD as standard across their entire range. When that day comes, Subaru can then start worrying about what niche they're going to be filling.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > Burrito de EJ25
05/15/2014 at 13:20

When the alternative is CVT... that is a no-go.

And Subaru's lineup is so limited, that they have AWD competition in almost every segment in which they compete anymore, except maybe base Impreza as an AWD economy sedan.

Legacy, Outback, Forester, XV Crosstrek, and Tribeca before it's demise, and whatever successor it gets, all have at least one, and usually multiple AWD competitors body-style for body-style, from other brands. Most of the time those other brands offer more amenities for the same or less money, due to economies of scale from larger companies.

Subaru doesn't offer anything that nobody else offers anymore.

Even WRX is getting competition from new competitors on the marketplace like the Chrysler 200 Turbo, and a likely upcoming Dart SRT4 variant with AWD.

Even if it isn't as good of an AWD system... most people who are pamphlet-deep and only see the bullet list of features... don't care.

Subaru is a small player, and they need to step it up, and be doing it better and cleaner than the other guys... because if they screw it up, they'll be lucky to be hauling rubber dog-do out of hong-kong, to paraphrase a classic movie.

Everybody else is already established as mainstream players, and they are looking to diversify into niches.

Subaru was a GREAT niche player, and has abandoned that to chase mainstream sales amongst a lot of larger sharks, and the people who bought Subarus for what they were then, aren't that interested anymore, and those who remain are realizing that the tradition of AWD performance and versatility are fading fast.

Keeping their enthusiast buyers means keeping their manual gearbox options. They save money by the same transaxles fitting ALL of their models.

It means more turbo performance. Everybody is hawking turbo-4s with direct injection as a power+economy option... Subaru only has ONE offering in that, the 2015 WRX, and STI still uses the timing-belt driven, piston ring land-vulnerable due to lean tuning to try and meet fuel efficiency standards engine, when they could be using the FA20DIT.

Legacy DIT in Japan had 296 horsepower at introduction. Other 2.0T engines are setting new records north of 300 horsepower, like Merc CLA-AMG. Subaru doesn't need to be flogging a 20 year old engine that has served well, but is time to retire.

And their 1.5L engines are under-powered dogs. Lack of power just means more throttle all the time, and that isn't efficient. Adequate or better power with proper gear ratios is a better solution.